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Offline 9A1UN

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ON4KST Chat
« u: 05. Veljača 2008, 15:44:42 »
Nakon sto je ON4KST postao popularan na VHF-u nazalost uporaba istog pocela
se siriti i na HF. 2m&up contesti su u meni pali na puno nizi nivo od kad se isti koristi.
Izgleda da ako se nesto ne poduzme to preci i na low bands.

Ovo je c&p sa www.radio-sport.net

Citat:
CQ 160 Committee Wrestles With Contest Internet Chat Dispute

By Jamie Dupree NS3T, radio-sport.net 


With questions surfacing this week about the contest usage of internet chat rooms, the head of the CQ 160 CW Contest Committee says he is already reviewing the issues of 160 competitors soliticiting contacts on the ON4KST low band chat site.

"I am studying the chat room situation," Dave Thompson K4JRB told radio-sport.net.

"They are prohibited for single ops and use by multi ops is under advisement," said Thompson, who said a number of multis have already told him they used the chat site.

"Help for multi-ops must stay passive," Thompson added. "Active or two way chats is like picking up the phone and calling which has been illegal for years."

One multi-op leader didn't even wait for a ruling from the CQ 160 Committee, as Tonno Vahk ES5TV decried the actions of one of his ES9C operators, who used the ON4KST chat room to solicit contacts wihtout Vahk's knowledge or approval.

Several of those chat exchanges netted ES9C new multipliers, like this one with Dick Rodrigues PY2RO.

01-27 03:48:49Z ES5RY Toomas PY2RO:,need PY. Hi Dick,can try ES9C?
01-27 03:49:38Z PY2RO Dick ok Toomas give me qrg
01-27 03:50:09Z ES5RY Toomas 1813 right now
01-27 03:50:32Z PY2RO Dick qrx


ES5TV, who has been outspoken about rules violations in radiosport, told the cq-contest reflector he had no choice but to submit the ES9C log as a checklog.

"Using of chat or any other means besides radio for soliciting QSOs during the contest is completely unacceptable to me," Vahk wrote.

"Even if the rules of this contest do not prohibit this directly it is clearly unsportsmanlike conduct," said Vahk.

A review of the ON4KST chat logs from the two days of the CQ 160 CW contest shows some multi-ops could get closer scrutiny by the CQ Contest Committee. Whether that means any punishment is unclear.

Among the multis that were active on the ON4KST chat site was the T93J team led by Braco Memic OE1EMS:

01-26 06:17:48Z T93J Braco n5pht please freq
01-26 06:18:12Z N5PHT Gary Branco 1.859?
01-26 06:18:51Z T93J Braco calling you now there
01-26 06:29:23Z N5PHT Gary Braco did you get my rpt ok?
01-26 06:30:34Z T93J Braco i got you and i cann heard you
01-26 06:31:05Z N5PHT Gary rr Braco - logged you at 0627 de n5pht ok?
01-26 06:31:30Z T93J Braco ok


After reviewing the situation with the CQ 160 committee, Memic told radio-sport.net that his T93J log won't be submitted, even though there seems to have been no specific rules violation.

"There is no other choice for us, as don't send in the log and to stay this year out of the competition," said Memic.

Another frequent chatter was Tibi Ferenec CT3/OM3RM, who was part of the CT9M crew. He spent time trying to attract some of those on the ON4KST site to his team's CQ frequency, like this extended effort to get a QSO with WE7K.

01-27 02:29:54Z WE7K Tommy Tibi - Can't copy u QRM
01-27 02:42:47Z CT3/OM3RM Tibi Tommy pls call now
01-27 02:50:54Z CT3/OM3RM Tibi Tommy pls your state
01-27 02:51:36Z WE7K Tommy Tibi AZ AZ AZ
01-27 02:52:06Z CT3/OM3RM Tibi Tnx Tommy


Another OM doing a lot of work on the ON4KST site was Miro OM5RW, who was part of the OM7M team. He also was trying to attract other chatters to the OM7M CQ frequency via the internet.

01-26 04:46:26Z OM5RW Miro is 1874 clear in US?
01-26 04:47:58Z WE7K Tommy Miro - 1874 fine in AZ
01-26 04:49:32Z OM5RW Miro tnx Tommy, callin cq there de OM7M
01-26 04:52:17Z OM5RW Miro pse call agn Tommy
01-26 04:53:17Z WE7K Tommy rr
01-26 04:53:24Z OM5RW Miro FB Tommy


The issue of such exchanges was first raised publicly last week on the cq-contest reflector, when questions were broached about ON4KST chat that involved the Larry Pace N7DD multi-op effort.

01-27 02:53:08Z N7DD larry looking for EU on 26.4
01-27 02:56:12Z OM8AW Bela larry om0m
01-27 02:57:04Z RA6LBS Andrei 1826.4
01-27 02:57:48Z OM8AW Bela Larry tnx new one
01-27 02:59:04Z RA6LBS Andrei Larry solid 339


01-27 06:03:42Z N7DD larry paul can you listen for me on 26.8?
01-27 06:06:09Z N7DD larry thanks paul
01-27 06:06:41Z YV1DIG Paul my pleasure Larry


As pointed out to radio-sport.net by several competitors who used the ON4KST chat site, the CQ 160 rules, unlike the CQWW DX Contests, do not have a specific clause dealing with internet chat exchanges.

The CQWW rules state: "The use by an entrant of any non-amateur means such as telephones, telegrams, internet, or the use of packet to solicit contacts during the contest is unsportsmanlike and the entry is subject to disqualification."

Something like that seems likely now to be added to the CQ 160 rules for the 2009 contests.

In order to help you make up your mind, radio-sport.net is posting the ON4KST chat logs for both days of the CQ 160 CW contest.

You can download the log here for January 26 and here for January 27.

Readers are likely to note that much of the chat is fairly benign, about how the band is playing and who is on what frequency. But then come exchanges that some hams claim are against the rules; others dispute that.

One other familiar call found in the CQ 160 CW ON4KST chat logs was Larry Tyree N6TR, who led the K7RAT multi-op effort in Oregon.

When asked about his ON4KST chat exchanges with JH4IFF during the CQ 160 CW contest, N6TR said he was not soliciting contacts via non-amateur means.

"Mitsu (JH4IFF) is someone I know and I had the feeling that my signal was not making it to Japan at all," Tree told radio-sport.net.

What follows is their chat exchange:

01-27 09:52:36Z N6TR Tree Is my signal making it to Japan? 1812.6 / K7RAT

01-27 09:54:59Z JH4IFF Mitsu Fast CW is on 16 but band is very noisy and weak

01-27 09:56:14Z JH4IFF Mitsu N6TR Tree, are you still on 12.6?

01-27 09:56:56Z N6TR Tree Yes Mitsu

01-27 09:57:46Z JH4IFF Mitsu Maybe I can hear you. But QRN is bad in this night.

01-27 10:00:32Z JH4IFF Mitsu N6TR Tree, sorry. Your signal is not so storong at this moment. I can not call you.

01-27 10:01:39Z N6TR Tree No problem Mitsu - no JA stations yet - band must not be good


"I honestly don't feel I was trying to get a QSO out of him, Tree said, "but I did ask for a report to see how conditions were."

But after exchanging several emails with radio-sport.net about the contest chat issue, Tree acknowleged that ON4KST "is no different than picking up the phone."

"It would be great if there was a CLEAR RULE in the contest to make this type of communication strictly illegal," said Tree. "What I did is probably not the best thing to have done."

For some like Matt Marzilli IZ3EYZ, the ON4KST chat during the contest was a bit of an eye-opener.

"I see low band chat helps ur score....we should get i-net connection at IR4X," said Marzilli at 0458 on the first night.

Bas me zanimaju misljenja nasih contestera

73 Davor 9A1UN

Offline 9A6C

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« Odgovori #1 u: 05. Veljača 2008, 19:08:14 »
Znam da će se sad javiti bar jedan prijerak hrvatskog radioamaterskog roda i reći kako sam tehnološki zaostao, ali za moj ukus su svi ti clusteri i chatovi obično sranje koje ne potiče nikakve vještine, osim spajanja TNC i lova po internetu.

Na taj način spoznaje o prostiranjima i operatorske vještine padaju u drugi plan u odnsou na brzinu  pristupa izboru informacija. Ne bih se čudio da neki  packet cluster dxer počne na 1815 zvati ZL2AUJ kad vidi da ga u 11.17 spotira K7RRA.

Znam da svako tijelo teži entropiji, a svaki operator što većem broju dxcc zemalja, ali ovo je stvarno bez veze. U contestu bi bilo najbolje ugasiti sve te chatove i clustere pa da vidimo ko je operator, a ko nije.

A onaj ON4KST chat je posebna priča, i najbolje bi bilo da se umjesto na 2m svi nađemo tamo i u rukavicama odradimo sve one SK7 i ostale frajere koji se tamo zateknu.

Ali ni to ne pomaže, praksa je pokazala da se i tada greške događaju i ne primi se pravi RST, jer ima neozbiljnih momaka koji znaju umjesto čekivano upisanih 599 dati recimo 589 i time dovesti u pitanje vjerodostojnost veze. sreća da roboti još nisu stigli do toga da rešetaju RST uz redni broj.

Dole cluster, dole paket, dole chat.

Svi dole.

Izvinjavam se na sranju, ali jednostavno ne znam koja bi ga književna riječ dostojno zamijenila, a čini mi se da ni ovo nije van standarda.

GG

 
Ljudi koji o sebi govore u trećem licu uplašeni su, narcisoidni i skromnih mentalnih sposobnosti

Offline 9A2D

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« Odgovori #2 u: 05. Veljača 2008, 19:50:43 »
GG, potpuno se slažem, pravi znalac će sigurno namirišati DX-a i naći mu mjeru i bez kojekakvih cluster-a.

73 de 9a2d

Offline 9A3MR

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« Odgovori #3 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 07:47:42 »
Svak se češe gdje ga svrbi.
Netko koristi inet i cluster, netko rasteže pojmove legal powera...a ima ih koji su u obje kategorije. Ni med cvijetjem ni pravice...a kamo li u ctestu.

WRTC je pokazatelj, donekle, tko je tko. Zašto ne bi išli korak dalje. Iz primjera Morse Runnera vidimo da se može napraviti dobar simulacijski program za ctest. Pretpostavljam da ne bi bilo teško otići korak dalje i napraviti program koji će unutar zatvorenog LAN-a simulirati pravi contest.
Lijepo, svaki contester sjedne za svoj PC i udri. Nema clustera, nema rules violations, nema law violations, nema postcontest mode...čim ctest završi logovi idu na cross checking i imamo pobjednika za pola sata.
Uspijemo odraditi i hamfest...

Pozdrav
Rolando 9A3MR

Offline 9A4ZM

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« Odgovori #4 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 10:09:19 »
> ima neozbiljnih momaka koji znaju umjesto očekivano upisanih 599 dati recimo 589

U Morse Runneru nisu svi raporti 599 !

Ti me najviše raduju.

73 de Maki

Offline 9A6XX

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« Odgovori #5 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 11:39:29 »
ON4KST je postao dio folklora UKV contestera a s obzirom na prirodu 160m banda to me uopće ne iznenađuje...

ono što me veseli u ovoj priči je radio-sport.net koji je počeo otvoreno pričati o problemima pa smo tako doživjeli da T93J neće poslati svoj log da se ne osramoti, a sličan će potez napraviti i drugi. da nitko o tome nije progovorio vjerujem da bi T93J log stigao uredno na adresu organizatora.

73,
Hrle - 9A6XX

Offline N5CRO

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« Odgovori #6 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 12:14:03 »
Evo sto je N7DD izjavio...

just finished the 160 meter contest. i had w8tk and kc7v over to operate as
a multi station. we had the best conditions to europe EVER. put 103 EU's in
the  log with 36 EU countries! i used the " low band chat room"
to solicit spots and clear frequencies. got lots of flack about that. some
even saying that i should be disqualified. sent an email to the contest
chairman  and he replied that it was totally legal. said that i had been the
first to use  that resource and the complainers were "whiners". set a new all time record for  zone 3 multi in the contest.


Necudi me da mu je tako dobro islo   :)
73,Josip  N5CRO

Laissez Le Bon Temps Roulez

Offline 9A2SB

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« Odgovori #7 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 13:53:44 »
Da to je tako, kako je.Ja sam dugo godina na bandovima i isprva mi se činilo da "to nije baš fer igra", ali bez toga neide!Prošle sam godine nabavio malo ozbiljniju opremu za 10Ghz....transverter DB6NT 12W out.fina parabola...etc, ali prostim dežuranjem nema posla.Na KST chatu lijepo se najave "scateri",smjerovi antene i uglavnom veza krene.
Vidio sam i takvih koji siluju vezu navodeći korespodenta kako je veza OK a uopće se nisu ni nanjušili.neki mi svojim navalama i telefonskim pozivima idu na živac..(npr I4XCC i OK1TEH) ali to je dio neke nove radio-svakodnevice kao i veze uz pomoć PC-a ,robota Winradio,Spectrana itd.Ma treba iskoristiti sve što se nudi samo što za svu tu "skalameriju" treba sve više vremena,no društvo (bogami i godine) se brine da nas je sve više u mirovini....hi.
Narode navalimo,ako nemožemo sami onda se udružimo i pokažimo zube "tamo onima"....GL i DSL.

Offline 9A6C

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« Odgovori #8 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 17:45:30 »
Ako mogu razumit da se na 3 cm di antene imaju snop od 5 stupnjeva i manje veza i može dogovorit, ne vidim zašto bi to trebalo radit na KV posebno na 160 di su sve antene omnidirectional?

Ma općenito ne volim kad me neko ubjeđuje da sam uradio vezu pa makar to bio i Spectran. Radije naložim 2 kW out pa zovem i što čujem to je. A i to je velika stvar, kad ti antena ima 10% efikasnosti, ko da guraš 200W u dobar dipol.

Radujmo se narodi...

GG
Ljudi koji o sebi govore u trećem licu uplašeni su, narcisoidni i skromnih mentalnih sposobnosti

Offline 9A3OS

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« Odgovori #9 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 19:26:16 »
Evo sto je N7DD izjavio...

just finished the 160 meter contest. i had w8tk and kc7v over to operate as
a multi station. we had the best conditions to europe EVER. put 103 EU's in
the  log with 36 EU countries! i used the " low band chat room"
to solicit spots and clear frequencies. got lots of flack about that. some
even saying that i should be disqualified. sent an email to the contest
chairman  and he replied that it was totally legal. said that i had been the
first to use  that resource and the complainers were "whiners". set a new all time record for  zone 3 multi in the contest.


Necudi me da mu je tako dobro islo   :)

Josipe,

Ovaj tvoj tekst je došao kao melem na ranu. Možda se nakon njega ljudi ipak ohrabre i odluče poslati log.

73
Sam, 9a3os

Offline OE1EMS

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« Odgovori #10 u: 06. Veljača 2008, 20:01:02 »
DR OM Hrle,

zbog cega bi se ja trebao osramotiti ukoliko posaljem log?


73 de T93J




Offline 9A5CW

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« Odgovori #11 u: 07. Veljača 2008, 15:40:01 »
Iskreno ja sam u to vrijeme bio na 50/70MHz chatu, low band nisam ni posjetio, cak sam i pomisljao, za onih 300 qso nisam ni trebao tako nesto.
By the way ljudi sa 6m chata su mi se javljali na cq ;)

73

p.s. 2m chat je zanimljiv za vrijeme ctesta , cim se ulogiras odmah "zacrvenis" meep meep ;) pogodi tko sam ?  ;D
73, Pa3k 9A5CW
..................................
B. Đorđević napisa:
Ni EU nije šta je bija, držmo se mi Istre.
On je u Božjim rukama, ka i Papin sobar. Razlika je jedino šta sobar viruje u Boga.

Offline 9A3BIM

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« Odgovori #12 u: 07. Veljača 2008, 23:19:59 »
p.s. 2m chat je zanimljiv za vrijeme ctesta , cim se ulogiras odmah "zacrvenis" meep meep ;) pogodi tko sam ?  ;D
crveni se lako sa 19el DK7ZB i 1kW PEP-a ....